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Lazyman
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| Posted: May 22 2006 at 13:09 | IP Logged
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I keep stumbling on this problem. I probably have 20 Insteon devices in 3,000 sq ft and 5 x-10 devices. I also have a new Boosterlinc because I use a Maxicontroller to control some of the devices.
Despite the fact that everything will communicate if I manually connect them (tap-tap), in PowerHome, I have a zillion "Checking" (terminally), and "Not Found" links.
I am finally getting to the point of starting to work with PowerHome but this recurring problem is a huge setback.
Any suggestions on clearing up the links?
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Lazyman
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| Posted: May 22 2006 at 14:06 | IP Logged
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I also get "FLAGGED CREATE" which never changes. My Insteon links page is a compelte mess.
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dhoward
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| Posted: May 22 2006 at 23:19 | IP Logged
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Lazyman,
I may need you to send me a copy of your database to troubleshoot. However, before that, we can try a couple of things.
First, make sure that you're using the 1.03.4.7-4 patch from this thread: http://www.power-home.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=645&KW=1 %2E03%2E4%2E7%2D4. This patch fixes a bug that would allow the creation of "phantom" links that would ultimately end up with CHECKING and NOT FOUND to proliferate.
Once you've confirmed that you're using the latest patch, the next step is to cleanup your PowerHome link database. Open up the PowerHome Explorer and navigate to PowerHome->Devices->Insteon->Units. Right click and select "Insteon DM Control". Select your Insteon controller and then choose "Clear PLC Database" followed by "Add ID's to PLC". What this does is make sure that all of your defined Insteon devices are in the PLC database...necessary for proper Insteon communication. The next step is to choose the "Clear PowerHome Insteon Groups". What this step does is erase your PowerHome Insteon links database. It in no way effects the actual Insteon links...dont worry about that...it just clears the discovered link data from PowerHome. Close the "Insteon DM Control" window. Right-click again and choose "Scan All Device Database". This will flag PowerHome to rescan all the link information from your Insteon devices. If you've got a lot of devices or a lot of links, it may take awhile but it will rescan and rediscover all of your Insteon links fresh.
When done rescanning your link info, check out the Insteon->Groups->By Controller. See if the CHECKING and NOT FOUND are gone. You should have a nice, fresh, link database within PowerHome. Monitor this and see how it does and if it gets messed up again, let me know and we may have to do some additional troubleshooting.
Dave.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: May 23 2006 at 10:25 | IP Logged
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Terrific. Lots of progress.
I did not have the patch. I followed all instructions.
Most links are not verified. For one switch, it has to links to another switch. Both links show up as not found. When I click on delete from device, they take a minute and return to not found.
Under button, one link says "-1" the other one says "-2" I am pretty sure I should not have negative links. I do not know what to do about it.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: May 23 2006 at 10:27 | IP Logged
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Terrific. Lots of progress.
I did not have the patch. I installed patch and followed all instructions.
Most links are now verified. However, for one switch, it has 2 links to another switch (both links connect the same 2 switchlincs). Both links show up as not found. When I click on delete from device, they take a minute and return to not found.
Under button, one link says "-1" the other one says "-2" I am pretty sure I should not have negative links. I do not know what to do about it.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: May 24 2006 at 10:47 | IP Logged
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I somehow seem to have cleared up my problem with negative button links.
I still have bad links (different ones now). Is linking between buttons on a keypad link available? I am doing that. Is that causing problems?
Where can I find info on how to use the Keypadlinc conf? I looked at it but cannot figure out what it means.
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dhoward
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| Posted: May 25 2006 at 13:55 | IP Logged
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Lazyman,
Well it's good that progress seems to being made  .
Negative buttons links are links that are in transition. It's kind of hard to explain, but I'll do my best.
Each link record you see in the Insteon By Controller screen consists of two Insteon link records...one in the controlling device and one in the slave device. That's why you have both a "Controller Status" and a "Responder Status". The button, ramprate, and level are only in the responder device and it's link information. The controller stores the group number and the responder address. The responder stores the group number, the controller address, and the level, ramprate, and button info. When PowerHome is trying to discover or verify links, it's in no particular order. Each device may contain both controller links and responder links. When PowerHome is interrogating or discovering links, it's does by device. What this means is that sometimes the controller side of a PowerHome link record will be discovered first and sometimes the responder side will be discovered first. If the controller side is discovered first, the button, level, and ramprate info will not be known because that is only in the responder. So what PowerHome does is use a negative sequential number for the button since the field cannot be blank and since it's part of the database key, it must be unique within the key. When the corresponding "responder" side of the link is discovered, the negative number will be updated with the correct "positive" button number. Long story short, it's perfectly normal to have negative button numbers while link discovery or verification is being performed. Once all links are discovered and verified, this situation should not exist.
Linking between buttons on a KPL is possible and available. This must be done in a certain way however and there is a bug in the current version if the responder button is the "main" KPL button. There is no current printed info on the KPL utility other than what is briefly described in the phinsteon.rtf document so I'll try to expand a little here.
Intra-button linking on a KPL is done by using a normal Insteon link (if the responder is the "main" button") and/or the KPL Config util. If the responder button is not button 1 (the main or "load" controlling button), then you only use the KPL Config util. If the responder button is the main button, then you need to create a link in the normal manner using the "Create/Edit/Clone" window. The bug is that when this link is created, it will initially show VERIFIED for both the controller or responder but when it is reverified by PowerHome, the "controller" status will change to NOT FOUND. The link will still work, but the controller link is actually overwritten by the responder link during link creation. This is fixed in the next beta.
For all intra-button KPL links, you must use the KPL config utility to set them up properly. Within the KPL config util, you can set the local level and ramprate as well as an X10 address. The KPL is the only device which supports the remote updating of it's EEPROM memory so this is made available. In addition to this info, you can set the status of the button to be either "toggle" or "on" or "off". KPL buttons default as "toggle" buttons (press once for on and again for off). Now, this next part is not a bug, but a limitation within the current Insteon KPL's. You can set a button from on or off to toggle completely within PowerHome. Just highlight the "Toggle" radio control. However, to set a button to either "on" or "off" requires a visit out to the switch first. If the button you wish to set as either on or off is already a toggle button, just go to the switch and push the button until it's light is either on or off so that it matches the type of button you want to set (on for on button, etc). You can do this all at once for all the buttons you plan on changing. Once the buttons lights reflect their intended usage, change the radio button in the KPL from "toggle" to either "on" or "off". It doesnt matter if you choose on or off because the setting will actually be taken from the current status of the button.
The last part of the KPL util is the section with all the on and off checkboxes numbered 1 through 8. This is where intra-button linking is handled. I don't completely understand how all of it works since I havent taken the time to try all possible combinations but Ive given you the capability to any setting combination that the switch allows. I can tell you how you would generally use this for intra-button linking. If you have a 6 button KPL and are linking the main button to button A so that the main button is the controller, then you DO NOT have to create an Insteon link. It's all done in the KPL config util. Just under the button 1 section, put a checkmark in the 3 ON box. Thats it. When you press the main ON button, button A (group 3) will light up. When you press the main OFF button, button A will turn off. Remember with a 6 button KPL, button 2, 7, and 8 are not used. If you were crosslinking these same buttons (button A or group 3 is now the controller and will turn on the main load), then you would have to create a link for this as well as use the KPL util. For the KPL part, in the button 3 section, place a check in the 1 ON box.
Now with the KPL Config util and the button LED boxes, you can setup complicated combinations so that out of buttons A,B,C, and D, only one button will be lit at a time. Say you wanted only either button A or button B to be "ON" at a time. If you press button A and button B is ON, then button B will turn off and vice versa. I don't know why you would really want this, but it can be done. To set this up, in the button 3 section, add a checkmark to 3 ON and 3 OFF. In the button 4 section, add a checkmark to 4 ON and 4 OFF. Save and the buttons should perform as described.
I hope this helps to shed some light and if it doesnt explain your current link display problems, let me know some details on what you're seeing and I'll try to figure it out.
Dave.
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WayneW
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| Posted: May 25 2006 at 21:44 | IP Logged
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dhoward wrote:
Long story short, it's perfectly normal to have negative button numbers while link discovery or verification is being performed. Once all links are discovered and verified, this situation should not exist.
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Dave, can Insteon communications issues make things appear to come & go? I am still trying to track down some "flagged create", "not found" and negative button numbers myself. I just learned about the -4 patch from Tony a couple days ago and installed it.
Edited by WayneW - May 25 2006 at 21:45
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dhoward
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| Posted: May 27 2006 at 21:49 | IP Logged
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Wayne,
The -4 patch was a good thing to add. Not everybody exhibit the symptoms that the patch corrects, but it never hurts to just add the patch anyway.
I wouldnt think communications would make things come and go. It could definately make them come, but once in the PowerHome database, they shouldnt just go away. Unless you're talking about "NOT FOUND" links that come and go. That is a definate sign of communications being below par. Once a link is discovered, it will periodically get verified. If the communications fail during the verification (it doesnt take much since a link is 8 bytes and you have to send about 81 bytes to get those 8 bytes and anyone command getting lost could cause a failure) then the link will be flagged "NOT FOUND". You could then just try the "Reverify" option or wait for PowerHome to scan it again on it's own time and if all is well, it will change back to "VERIFIED".
If you had a lot of problems in your link database before installing the patch, then I would definately use the technique outlined above where you erase the PowerHome link database and flag all devices for rediscovery. Just do it before you go to bed at night and you'll be all set in the morning.
FYI, Elk and I have been going back and forth and were working on a protocol for PowerHome to update the M1XSP.
Dave.
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WayneW
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| Posted: May 27 2006 at 22:20 | IP Logged
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dhoward wrote:
You could then just try the "Reverify" option or wait for PowerHome to scan it again on it's own time and if all is well, it will change back to "VERIFIED".
If you had a lot of problems in your link database before installing the patch, then I would definitely use the technique outlined above where you erase the PowerHome link database and flag all devices for rediscovery. Just do it before you go to bed at night and you'll be all set in the morning.
FYI, Elk and I have been going back and forth and were working on a protocol for PowerHome to update the M1XSP.
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So, at any random time (once PH has all caught up on housekeeping) should I ever see "flagged create" or "not found"? And how many (or what percentage) of my devices should show "checking" at one time?
I have done that clean out procedure twice in the past few days.
I see this message every 5,10 or 20 seconds:
5/27/2006 10:16:05 PM:nakmsg
ui:sendinsteonraw=00 00 00 01 65 31 05 28 0F
si:00 00 00 01 65 31 05 28 0F
PLC:sendinsteonraw=True
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=03
PLC:eventraw=05
5/27/2006 10:16:10 PM:nakmsg
01 65 31 is the device ID typo I made, so that device never existed in my house and is no longer visible in the PH GUI. I assume this is PH trying to still communicate with the non-existant device? Is this useless pinging blocking the real communication that PH wants to do?
I would be happy to send you my db and beta test any Elk stuff.
Edited by WayneW - May 27 2006 at 22:21
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dhoward
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| Posted: May 30 2006 at 11:28 | IP Logged
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Wayne,
"FLAGGED CREATE" should only appear when you create a new link (the replace function would have done FLAGGED DELETE on the old links and FLAGGED CREATE on the new replacement links). PowerHome should never arbitrarily set a link to "FLAGGED CREATE" as any of its background housekeeping.
CHECKING will appear everytime PowerHome is checking a devices links. The percentage of checking links is dependent upon the number of links in the device being checked. If you've got a KeypadLinc being checked and it has say 60 links, then when that KPL is flagged for a database check, ALL of it's links will initially start out as CHECKING and the checking will be changed to VERIFIED if the link is found or NOT FOUND if the link checking fails in some way.
The message posted from your SDM is a "Set High Byte for Peek" command to 01.65.31. If this device is not in the Insteon Units screen, PowerHome should not just arbitrarily be checking for it. It's possible that it will show in the Insteon Links screen, but the Device ID should show as [NOT FOUND] and the link should be deleted by right-clicking and selecting "Delete from Devices" if the other half of the link is in a legit device thats VERIFIED or "Delete from PH" if the other half link is NOT FOUND or that device does not exist either.
If 01.65.31 is not in the Device Units screen, then the only way you should see the above SDM log is there is a link in the Insteon Links screen and you hit Reverify on it.
If you want me to take a look at your DB, feel free to email it too me and I'll see what's going on.
Dave.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 14:49 | IP Logged
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Some additional strange behavior.
I have a keypadlinc. When I push button 3, the main button (1 & 2) come on. Powerhome does not show this link. Last night, I cleaned up my powerhome links again (based on your comments at the top of this thread. Powerhome still does not show this link, but the main button is still responding to button 3.
Also, I have 2 switchlinc that I would like to cross link (they are also members of other groups as repsonders). Powerhome keeps showing Group 241 with negative button numbers that do not go away. It shows it is controlling 3 switches which are all 00.00.00.
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dhoward
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| Posted: June 16 2006 at 15:46 | IP Logged
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Lazyman,
When a KPL has intrabutton linking, that is all done through the KeypadLinc Configuration Utility (right-click on a KPL in the Insteon Devices screen). If you want the responder button to be the main load controlled button, then you also need a link. If you only are "lighting the buttons" then this is all within the KPL Config Util.
Concerning the group 241 with negative button numbers. The best thing to do is right-click the link in the Groups by Controller screen and choose "Delete from PH". The go to the Insteon Devices screen and choose "Scan Device". If the links come back, then delete again and choose "Rebuild Device" when the links have been deleted. Also, make sure you have the -4 patch as that was a major contributor to these types of links (I think you already have it but I cant remember for sure).
Dave.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: June 16 2006 at 22:04 | IP Logged
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I checked on the keypad config utility. It does not show any linking - nothing is checked and everything is toggle.
When I push button 3, button 1/2 comes on and 7/8 goes off. It does not effect the load.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: June 16 2006 at 22:06 | IP Logged
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Have not followed your directions yet, but not sure which patch you are referring to: Powerhome (i have 1.03.4.7), DB Version (I have 1.03.9.1), or SDM (I have 1.01.79.226.
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dhoward
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| Posted: June 19 2006 at 23:22 | IP Logged
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Lazyman,
The -4 patch is on the downloads page and is a zip file with a couple of files that overwrite old ones in the PowerHome directory. They are phctlrs.pbd and phuirt.dll. If you're not sure, you can always overwrite the files with the patch again, it wont hurt.
Concerning the KPL. That is definately strange. The behaviour you describe is exactly what happens when the KPL Config Util is used...ie, it doesnt cause any changes to the load...just affects the lights. It almost sounds as if there is a communication problem and the KPL Util is not able to "read" the settings.
One thing you can try which should surely fix it is to perform a factory reset on KPL switch (instructions are in the manual but it basically consists of pulling the set button out for just over 10 seconds and then pushing all the way in for approx 3 seconds until it flashes). Once you've factory reset the KPL, use the "Rebuild" menu option to rebuild all of the KPL links. This should solve whatever is errant.
Dave.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 14:33 | IP Logged
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I reset the keypad and rebuilt it. Fixed it.
Thanks Dave!
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dhoward
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 23:11 | IP Logged
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Heh,
When all else fails, this usually takes care of it.
Dave.
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Lazyman
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| Posted: September 05 2006 at 14:12 | IP Logged
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Hi Dave. Sorry to bother you but I've got problems again.
I started thsi thread some time ago. After working with you, I got everything running great and I was running for many months. Then something changed, I had terrible communications problems, and in the process of trying to fix it, made things worse.
Here is where I am at. 3,200 sq ft. 29 Insteon devices. 4 X10 devices. I have 4 Insteon RF Extenders (trying to fix the problem).
I downloaded core application, clear plc database, clear powerhome insteon devices, clear powerhome insteon groups and then closed the application. I then did a factory restore on each switch in the house. Then I restarted powerhome. I manually added each device. A few links appeared. I selected delete from device.
I have now crosslinked 2 sets of 2 devices (family room 1 and 3, and family room 2 and 4). The links have not been established after 12 hours. I am not sure why I am having communication issues, or what to do about it.
I did have an x10 booster which I would like to use but I think is causing problems (it is one of the newer ones). That is not plugged in right now.
I am not sure how to get a log file to send you. I was going to send you my database, but it is huge! I do not think it should be given that I have deleted almost everything but 3 macros, 10 timers, and the units.
Looking for suggestions. I am happy to restart again.
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dhoward
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| Posted: September 16 2006 at 15:44 | IP Logged
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Lazyman,
Not sure what happenend to your system to suddenly cause communication problems, but I would try to identify what new equipment or similar was recently added when the problems began. It can be something as innocuous as a new dryer or refrigerator or similar. It also may be related to moving your setup from one outlet to another or plugging in another noise producing piece of equipment in close proximity to your PLC.
Anyways, after having read your post, it appears that you pretty much completely reset PowerHome (clear Insteon devices and groups). Since you manually re-entered all of your Insteon devices (instead of auto-discovery), did you remember to do a "Clear PLC Database" and "Add Device ID's to PLC" AFTER you were done manually entering your devices? This is extremely important and you will not get any communications between your devices and the PLC until this is done.
If that is all good and you cant identify what changed in the system to cause the communication problems, then it's trial and error to try and locate the source of the problem. I have found that a single flaky Insteon device can flood the line with bad communications and cause the network to halt. What I would do is unplug anything that can be easily unplugged, Insteon and otherwise. Check the status of the Insteon network. Try to communicate directly to some of your hardwired switches. Watch the SDM log and see if you're getting an excessive number of Event 03's. If all seems to be working, one by one start pluggin in your devices until you identify the problem one. If you still have problems with everything unplugged, then you need to start flipping breakers off until you can isolate what may be causing the noise.
Also, make sure that your RF signaLincs are on opposite phases and working properly.
Let me know how it goes,
Dave.
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Topic: Checking / Not Found
