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kemporama
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| Posted: November 09 2009 at 23:26 | IP Logged
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I'm not sure if this is possbible to do, I've played with it for awhile and have had no luck getting it to work. I may just missing something simple hopefully, but if someone could tell me if this is even possible I'd appreciate it.
I have an Insteon dimmer switch programmed to control a light, the standard setup. Is it possible to program things so that fast on or fast off taps on that switch controls a different light than the switch's default device? I've tried coming up with triggers and macros to do this but have had no luck. I see the programming options for "fast on" verses just plain "on" so I thought this may be a possibility.
Thanks.
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grif091
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| Posted: November 10 2009 at 02:29 | IP Logged
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You cannot do that by direct linking a responder to the dimmer but it should be possible to do that with triggers that fire from the different commands issued when a single tap (On) versus a double tap (Fast On) is done. You should see different commands in the Insteon Raw Log or Event Log from the different taps.
Link the dimmer as a Controller to the PowerHome PLM/PLC as a Responder for the dimmer to send Insteon messages to the PLC/PLM so that triggers can be defined in response to those messages.
Edited by grif091 - November 10 2009 at 02:32
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Lee G
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kemporama
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| Posted: November 11 2009 at 19:36 | IP Logged
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Thanks. I was able to get another light to respond on a double tap.
Is there a way though to get the "primary" light to not come on when a double tap is done on its switch? Right now it's turning on both the primary light and the other light.
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grif091
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| Posted: November 11 2009 at 19:56 | IP Logged
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No. I assume there is a load (light) connected to the primary switch itself. This load will respond to the tap (single, double, etc).
You would have to use something like an in-line linc to actually control the primary load. The primary switch itself would not have anything connected to its load wire. Then a single tap ON command would be used to control the in-line linc, just as you are using the double tap Fast ON to control the other light.
Another solution would be to replace the primary switch with a KeypadLinc. The KPL Main (A) button (in 8 button mode) or ON/OFF buttons in 6 button mode would control the primary load and one of the smaller secondary buttons can be used to control the other light. In this configuration direct links could be used without the need for Powerhome triggers or macros.
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Lee G
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kemporama
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| Posted: November 11 2009 at 20:22 | IP Logged
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Your last post made me realize that my testing I'm doing isn't an accurate test. I've been testing this on a switch that does handle the load (just because it's nearby and I don't have to walk so far after I make each change to try it) but the switch I want this to be on in the end doesn't control a load, so it sounds like I will be able to get it to work how I'd like.
The only issue that I have come across is that anytime, including during the testing I've been doing for this task, is that when I have a KPL button (or switch tap) linked to the PLM so that I can trigger macros there's almost always a few second delay from when the button is clicked to when the action takes place. Is this normal? Is there a way to make the response more instant?
Thanks for your help.
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grif091
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| Posted: November 11 2009 at 20:44 | IP Logged
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Going to the PLM and then have PH react with a trigger and perhaps a macro will always be slower than a direct link to the responder. You have the overhead of multiple Insteon commands plus the PC overhead to fire a trigger and macro to achieve the result. Compared to the responder reacting nearly simultaneously to the initial Group Broadcast command issued by the switch tap. What Trigger Type are you using to fire the trigger? Take a look at the Event Log (Control/Powerhome Status) to see the time stamped events. That should give you an idea of where the time is being consumed and perhaps allow an alternate approach. Using a KeypadLinc would allow each responder (or group of responders) to be assigned a unique button with direct links which always gives the fastest response.
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Lee G
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dhoward
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| Posted: November 16 2009 at 15:51 | IP Logged
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A few second delay would typically not be normal. Between pressing an Insteon button, having the message received by PowerHome, firing a trigger, and playing back an action should typically take only around a second (when you're waiting for something to happen though, that second seems like a long time).
If you could post a snippet of your eventlog showing the Incoming Insteon, trigger check, macro execute, and Insteon out commands, I'll be able to see if what you're seeing is typical or not concerning response time.
Going through PowerHome will always be slower though since you're got two Insteon commands and the PC processing vs a direct link which will be a single Insteon command.
Dave.
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kemporama
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| Posted: November 17 2009 at 23:15 | IP Logged
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Thanks Dave and Lee for your help.
I have a hunch of what may be going on, maybe someone can chime in and tell me if I'm right and if there are any options for me...
The main trigger/macro that I'm having the delay with is a "Panic" button that I have set up that turns on every insteon switch in my house, about 25 of them. A button on a KPL triggers a macro that turns on a group that has every light in it. If I remember correctly the delay when I activate the button isn't bad (I can't try right now, the wife is sleeping and I don't want to turn all the lights on on her, thus I can't get the raw logs right now but I can tomorrow.) But I know for sure that I run into the delay problem when I go to turn off the button that triggers a macro that shuts the group all off. I'm thinking what may be happening is that stuff is going on in the background still from the ON even after all the lights are already on, so when I hit the button OFF there's still stuff queued up that is trying to finish before it will start the OFF macro, thus causing a really long delay. I'm guessing macro commands basically just queue up.
Is there a way to somehow shorten all the cleanup commands that run even after a macro is successfully completed?
My macros to do this are "Insteon Group" commands with a value of "ON." My triggers call the macros with trigger types of "insteon group in" with a value of "ON" and boolean of "1."
Hope that all makes sense.
Thanks!
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grif091
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| Posted: November 18 2009 at 00:13 | IP Logged
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Triggering with an Insteon Group In fires the trigger with the first of two Insteon messages so that gives you the best trigger activation. The Insteon Group On uses a standard Insteon Group command sequence which will turn on all the responders nearly simultaneously with the initial Group Broadcast message. That message is not ACKed by any of the responders so Insteon follows up with a Group Cleanup Direct to every responder linked to the Group which would be 25 more messages outbound and 25 ACKs inbound so the PLM/PLC will be active for several seconds sending those 25 messages and getting an ACK back from each one. This all happens from a single Group On command from Powerhome so there is nothing that can be done from that side.
Theoretically you could delete most of the "Controller of" link records from the PLC/PLM for that Group so that only a few of the most critical devices would get the follow on Group Cleanup Direct. All the responders that still have the link record on their end will still respond to the initial Group Broadcast message so all 25 devices would turn on (maybe) but there is no guarantee that all linked responders will see that Group Broadcast message. It depends on how reliable your powerline is. That is why the Insteon architecture uses a follow on Group Cleanup Direct to each responder to insure that all devices have in fact responded to the On or Off Group request. The links would be broken for many of the devices which will show up in the Links display as broken links so it will not be pretty.
Perhaps selecting a subset of devices to respond, ones that would light up each room but not every light in the room. Might give you the desired awareness affect without using every device and therefore reducing the number of follow on Group Cleanup Direct commands.
Also, how many times do you use a Panic On button and do you really care if the Panic Off has some delay.
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Lee G
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BeachBum
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| Posted: November 18 2009 at 08:28 | IP Logged
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I have seen the delay from Group Ons even though the lights did come on instantaneous. When I investigated the log the delay was associated with Insteon retries as a result of noisy circuits. Consequently other macros where beginning to queue up thus causing an apparent delay.
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kemporama
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| Posted: November 18 2009 at 10:04 | IP Logged
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You're correct that the panic button isn't something that is used frequently, so a delayed off isn't a big issue. I was mainly just trying to understand the general concept about the flow of what happens. Since the panic button is on a KPL occasionally the button does get bumped, so when it has to be deactivated that is more the need than if it was activated for a legit reason.
Another time I was getting delays was with a simple "bedtime" macro tied to a button that basically turned off all the lights on my first floor (about 7 devices), turned on 2 lights that would light my way upstairs, and then shut off those 2 lights after say 30 seconds. It took quite some time for the sequence to appear to start. I don't have it programmed in right now anymore, so I will program it in again and then if I have the slowness I'll post the log entries.
Lee- You had wrote "Theoretically you could delete most of the "Controller of" link records from the PLC/PLM for that Group so that only a few of the most critical devices would get the follow on Group Cleanup Direct." Where exactly can I do this at? I'm looking on Links tab in Insteon explorer and can't seem to find what you're referring to.
Thanks.
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grif091
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| Posted: November 18 2009 at 10:24 | IP Logged
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I would use the Simplehomenet Utility Suite (free download from Simplehomenet) but this requires a PLC or an EZServe device to use as a powerline interface. That utility has basic link record read/write capability which allows individual link record modification or deletion. Unfortunately it does not support using a PLM as the powerline interface. There is no facility in PH link management that I am familiar with that would allow deleting a single link record. Probably should not have even brought up the idea. I will work but PH will eventually realize that the link records are missing and show the link records as not found. Since this would affect nearly every device defined the Links tab display would show broken links for nearly every device. Plus if you ever refreshed the PLM links with PH it would restore the missing links.
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Lee G
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Topic: Triggering from Insteon dimmer?
