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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 10:40 | IP Logged
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I recently installed a whole-house standby generator with an Automatic Transfer Switch in my home. My problem is when the ATS switches from generator power back to utility power, which only takes a fraction of a second, PowerHome locks up – I must reboot the PH computer to get things working again.
To narrow down the problem, I recreated the ATS switching action by using a double throw relay with both the NO and NC contacts connected to the hot leg of an extension cord – by plugging a single device into this test rig, I can switch the power off and back on very quickly without impacting all circuits in the house. This rig also rules out a phase problem created by switching from generator power to utility power. Sure enough, when I power the PLM through the test rig, the split-second power loss causes PH to lose communication with the PLM. When PH attempts to restart the controller it locks up after a few seconds.
My PLM is a 2412UH and I’m running PH 2.1.4. When I unplug the PLM in normal fashion and then plug it back in, of course, PH loses connection; but it is able to reconnect by restarting the controller.
Any suggestions other than getting rid of the generator?
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Jimmy
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BeachBum
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 10:59 | IP Logged
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Here’s a wild thought. Run your PLM off a APC battery using Dual Band or plug an Access Point piggy back to the PLM. Then install another Dual Band module or Access Point on the line. Let’s see how many dings I get on this one.
Edited by BeachBum - September 29 2011 at 11:00
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 13:16 | IP Logged
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Now that's thinking out of the box!
Could the problem be with the USB PLM? Would switching to a serial PLM possibly correct it?
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Jimmy
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BeachBum
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 14:43 | IP Logged
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Do you get any kind of an indication of a problem other than it freezes? When it locks up is it only PH? I don’t think it is because it’s a USB. A USB is a serial inside I believe.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 15:33 | IP Logged
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I get the system message: "Communication problem with Insteon PLM controller INSTEON1 detected. Attempting to restart controller" when PH detects the issue. I hear the hard drive spin up, then get an hour glass and it freezes. I get "This program is not responding" when I try to close PH. PH will not close and a reboot is necessary.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 15:35 | IP Logged
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JimmyL wrote:
I get the system message: "Communication problem with Insteon PLM controller INSTEON1 detected. Attempting to restart controller" when PH detects the issue. I hear the hard drive spin up, then get an hour glass and it freezes. I get "This program is not responding" when I try to close PH. PH will not close and a reboot is necessary.
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Yes - it's only PH that locks up - able to access other programs OK and able to shut down Windows XP normally.
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Jimmy
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BeachBum
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 20:55 | IP Logged
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Try trigger – any name, raw, ph_reinitialize, Insteon COMM Fail,PLM,failed,1 and see what happens….
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 29 2011 at 23:47 | IP Logged
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Pete,
Tried your trigger but it was not initiated before PH locked up. I rebooted, recreated the problem and then tried to manually reinitialize before PH detected the communication issue - got system message "Get IM info command failed for Insteon PLM INSTEON1. Attempting to restart controller". At that point PH locked up as usual.
I rebooted and again recreated the problem but before PH could detect the communication issue, I unplugged the PLM for 2 seconds and then plugged it back in. This time, when PH did detect the communication issue, it was able to restart the controller successfully.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 30 2011 at 00:10 | IP Logged
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In my previous post I mentioned that I unplugged the PLM for 2 seconds - that is I unplugged it from the electrical outlet of 2 seconds.
What would happen if I just disconnected the USB cable? So I recreated the problem and before PH detected the communication problem, I disconnected the USB cable from the PLM for a few seconds. This also corrected the issue and PH restarted the controller successfully.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: September 30 2011 at 00:14 | IP Logged
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Sounds like the bump hits the PLM only and PH has no idea it has lost communications. With no PH indication nothing can be initiated from PH. The question to Dave is why PH locks up without knowing it lost communication. I’ve manage to work around almost any situation but his one is strange. I have a routine that checks for that kind of problem but it is for a lost signal not a PLM lock up and this sounds like the PLM goes into its own world. One would think the PLM is locking up in its own code and can’t communicate or leaves a signal line hot. Have you tried a different USB cable? If everything else fails try my original wild idea. Is there some kind of capacitive hold device that might work? You caught me in the middle of typing. I’ll go back to the cable though like a powered usb hub.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: September 30 2011 at 09:24 | IP Logged
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I tried a powered usb hub but no luck.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page – PH doesn’t lock up until it tries to restart the controller so it does realize it’s lost communication with the PLM.
It seems significant to me that the problem can be corrected by disconnecting the usb cable for a few seconds.
I like your idea of a capacitive device. Seems like that may be a fairly simple workaround but I don’t have the skills to design such a device. I'll keep that in mind though.
If Windows were able to kill PH when the program locked up, I could have Windows restart PH automatically once it detected the program was no longer responding; however, the only way to kill PH once it hangs is to reboot the computer.
I do another have a workaround although it’s a lot of work. I have a micro switches in the ATS which are used to monitor the position of the transfer switch. I could use a timer relay to kill power to the PLM for a few seconds when the transfer switch moves from generator power back to utility power. Lots of wiring to accomplish this but it is a solution.
Like you say, the question is why is PH hanging.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: September 30 2011 at 12:16 | IP Logged
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Yep we are on the same page. I just think out loud at times. If you have to reboot the system that means Task Manager isn’t accessible either? That being the case sounds like the port is locked up although I would have thought unplugging the PLM would have freed it. If PH is trying to restart the controller is there a log entry in any of the logs and is there an Windows event log entry? Just food for thought. I’m afraid if a capacitive device was used it would suck up the signal. If you have a bridging modules like dual band or access points you can somewhat try my theory of installing the PLM into a surge protector and piggy an Access Point on top of it and see what happens.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 00:22 | IP Logged
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Actually Task Manager is available and shows PH as Not Responding when the problem occurs. Selecting End Task goes through the motions of shutting the application down and asks if I want to send an error report; however that’s as far as it goes. When I go back to Task Manager, PH still shows as Not Responding. Maybe it would shut it down eventually but didn’t after waiting 5 minutes. Everything about Windows seems to function normally and other programs function OK. I checked and Task Manager will shut PH down when PH isn’t locked up.
The only item in the event log is the System Message: Communication problem with Insteon PLM INSTEON1 detected. Attempting to restart controller. - The next entry is PH Started which is after the reboot.
I’d try your recommendation with the Access Points but I’ve also got lots of X10 devices.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 01:33 | IP Logged
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I wonder why you can’t catch it with the controller trigger using fail. If the surge protector idea works with Insteon we may get around the X10 signal suck with a little luck like in a repeater.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 11:03 | IP Logged
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I think it’s just a matter of sequencing priority within PH. With default settings, after 5 attempts to communicate with the PLM, PH first tries to restart the controller at which point it’s locking up. If it didn’t lock up, it probably would initiate the trigger next.
I’ll try your surge protector idea and let you know the results.
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JimmyL
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 12:27 | IP Logged
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So I plugged my PLM into an UPS. This corrected the power flicker problem and surprisingly didn’t have a noticeable impact on Insteon or X10 performance. Even without a SignalLinc piggybacked on the PLM, I didn’t see any NAK’s during initial testing of all my devices. If performance remains good, I wonder if there are any disadvantages to using the UPS?
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JimmyL
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 14:23 | IP Logged
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I just found this website, http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm , which details Insteon devices and revisions. Note under 2412UH PLM says: “some reports that power surges or very brief power outages can freeze up USB versions of the PLM, but not serial versions. Unplug, plug back in to reset.”
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grif091
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 15:20 | IP Logged
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The USB variant 2412U/2412UH is a serial PLM with a USB to Serial adaptor built in. There has been some anecdotal evidence the USB adaptor can hang up when there are power problems. The problem seemed to vary depending on whether using a USB port on the PC or powered versus unpowered USB hub. I have not seen definitive proof of this. The Serial variant does not seem to lock up which lead to the speculation that it has to do with the built in USB to Serial converter.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: October 01 2011 at 21:35 | IP Logged
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When you say UPS I am led to believe that would be a battery type backup system vs a surge protector power strip with MOVs built in. If you meant power strip with surge protection then it is not an ideal situation because of the signal sucking the strip can cause. With Insteon if you can get a signal to the first device on that line then your problem is diminished. On the other hand with X10 there is no rejuvenation without installing a repeater or in some cases an amplifier. I’ve tried both and found them to amplify noise and signals but that was years ago. Leviton makes some neat X10 stuff that works. Now if your talking about a battery system that is the approach I use but my PLM/PLC is plugged outside of that environment. I don’t know how much the battery system would suck out of the signal. Besides that I have a FilterLinc isolating the battery backup from the line. As I said earlier and which Lee confirmed the USB PLM is really a combination of the two. Cheap marketing technique. I run a serial with a USB adapter. You could install a 120v relay plugged into the UPS and plug the PLM into that. The later could hold the relay during the brief interrupt but would not be cost effective
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JimmyL
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| Posted: October 02 2011 at 13:48 | IP Logged
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I’m using a battery backup power supply but I don’t think it’s my long term solution. I’ve got a spare serial port on my PH computer so I’m going replace the 2412uh with a 2413s to see if that corrects the problem.
I've got a SignaLinc Repeater for X10 which I've used for 5 years. Near flawless X10 performance with some very long wiring runs. Having a whole-house surge suppressor I consider myself lucky.
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Topic: Generator Problem
