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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 14 2008 at 21:24 | IP Logged
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Beware if you buy a 1000 watt Insteon dimmer from Smarthome. The documentation supplied with the dimmer does not address wattage “de-rating”. I removed the 4 little tabs that got in the way when trying to install it in a multi-gang box. The dimmer would not operate correctly when I tested it and I then contacted Technical Support. They said I voided the warranty by overloading the device. I have lights totaling 480 watts. The dimmer was also mounted next to another dimmer. This explanation was found on Smarthome web site but NOT in the supplied documentation:
==> “In regards to INSTEON dimmers, what does the term de-rating mean?
How should I apply de-rating when using dimmers in multi-gang boxes?
When using any INSTEON dimmer in a multi-gang electrical box (more than one switch banked together in the same electrical box) where the dimmers will be right next to each other, the dimmer's wattage capacity must be de-rated by 200 watts per side where the dimmers are "touching".
Example:A triple gang box with three 600 watt dimmers: The ones on the "outside" get derated by 200 watts each, since they are only touching on one side, the one in the middle would be derated by 200 watts per side, making it a 200 watt capacity dimmer (600 - 200=400, 400-200=200). When dealing with the 2476DH 1000 watt dimmers, the small aluminum tabs that are on the sides of the 2476DH should not be removed. If they are removed, the dimmers gets an additional 100 watts de-rating per tab that is removed.” <===
In my communications with them I wrote: “The install documentation or the unit itself should have warning information about removing the fins.” I’m now being ignored.
All I did was swap out a 600 watt dimmer with 1000 watt. A lot of beers were wasted on this venture.
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Dean
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| Posted: March 14 2008 at 23:18 | IP Logged
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Pete, did they point you to that information on their board after you contacted support? I have an Insteon ICON dimmer and an ICON relay in a dual-gang box, do you think the same rules apply regarding de-rating, or does it have to be two dimmers?
Thanks,
-Dean
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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 14 2008 at 23:31 | IP Logged
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I think it only applies to dimmers. And yes this information was pointed to me after I had the problem. The moral is don’t tell them the truth when they start asking questions that might implicate the warranty is void.
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keepersg
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| Posted: March 15 2008 at 01:48 | IP Logged
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Dean wrote:
Pete, did they point you to that information on their board after you contacted support? I have an Insteon ICON dimmer and an ICON relay in a dual-gang box, do you think the same rules apply regarding de-rating, or does it have to be two dimmers?
Thanks,
-Dean |
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This is from the installation instructions:
Before installing SwitchLinc Dimmer, please familiarize yourself with the following and take the necessary precautions listed here:
• Be sure that you have turned off the circuit breaker or removed the fuse for the circuit you are installing SwitchLinc Dimmer in. Installing SwitchLinc Dimmer with the power on will expose you to dangerous voltages.
• SwitchLinc Dimmer requires a small amount of power to operate, which it receives from a connection to the NEUTRAL electrical wire (usually white). If you are replacing a standard mechanical switch with SwitchLinc Dimmer, the switch you are replacing will normally not have a connection to the neutral wire. However, most junction boxes will contain a NEUTRAL wire that you can connect SwitchLinc Dimmer to. If your junction box does not contain a neutral wire, please call SmartLabs Tech Support at 866-243-8018, or consult an electrician.
• Don’t use SwitchLinc Dimmer to control low-voltage lighting with electronic transformers, fluorescent lights, or motors. These are inductive loads, which SwitchLinc Dimmer is not designed to control. Use a SmartLabs SwitchLinc V2 Relay instead.
• Don’t use SwitchLinc Dimmer to control an electrical outlet, because non-dimmable or inductive loads may be plugged into it.
• SwitchLinc Dimmer may feel warm during operation. This includes the exaggerated mounting fins, which are designed to aid in heat dissipation. The amount of heat generated is within approved limits and poses no hazards. To minimize heat buildup, ensure that the area surrounding the rear of SwitchLinc Dimmer has adequate ventilation by clearing away excess insulation.
• If the dissipation fins prevent SwitchLinc Dimmer from fitting in the desired installation location, the fins can be removed by grasping the edge of each fin with pliers, and bending the fin back and forth along the score line until the fin breaks off. The removal of each individual fin reduces SwitchLinc Dimmer’s rated capacity by 100W, since removing the fins reduce the heat dissipation capacity. Removing a single fin reduces SwitchLinc Dimmer’s rating to 900W, removing two fins reduces capacity to 800W, and removing all four fins reduces capacity to 600W. Please note: dissipation fins cannot be reattached once removed.
You do not need to derate dimmers that are next to relays. Been there done that. Incidentally, an Icon on-off switch works great as a 'slave' switch in a multiway circuit with a load attached to a Insteon dimmer. Counter-intuitively, pressing and holding the paddle on the Icon will dim the light on the linked dimmer.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 15 2008 at 08:50 | IP Logged
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The above quote is from the SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer 1000W User’s Guide. This is NOT shipped with the high wattage dimmer. The Quick-Start Guide SWITCHLINC DIMMER SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer (#2476D & #2476DH) is what’s in the box
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Gadgets
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| Posted: March 17 2008 at 00:30 | IP Logged
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Sounds like a product to avoid in my eyes. It appears this thing has been designed on the edge of melt down already with all these things reducing it's wattage capabilities so easily and by such relatively large amounts. This information should not only be in the instructions but on the website so you can make an educated purchase knowing this kind of thing. I love well designed electronics, and honest up front companies! 
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bhlonewolf
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| Posted: March 17 2008 at 09:45 | IP Logged
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Gadgets, derating is typical on most manufacturers due to heat buildup of the triacs.
I would think, though, that beachbum it would take a long time to overload it -- assuming you're only putting 480 watts or whatever at it. It shouldn't fail right away like that. Interesting.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 17 2008 at 12:10 | IP Logged
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It appears that all they added was a little more aluminum to the standard Insteon Dimmer and charge $20 extra. We’re talking about 4 tabs that are less than an inch by maybe 3/8s with indentations to allow for snapping off. I remember years ago the X10 dimmers had the same configuration and mentioned they could be snapped off if needed for installation. I don’t remember anything about the wattage being lowered. The only way this could be installed for full rating is in a single box. It does not mention that in the sales stuff. The trac has 4 R20 50 watts + 5 MR16 50 watts dimmable and 1 MR16 20 watt dimmable. The actual load was 420 watts as 1 of the R20s was burned out at the time. The failure was noticed in the first 5 minutes and was the only thing on at the time. Lesson learned don’t tell the truth. In my opinion the dimmer is clearly defective.
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bhlonewolf
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| Posted: March 17 2008 at 15:46 | IP Logged
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I would agree, the dimmer is certainly defective. There's no way the heat would build up that quickly to cause a problem. Frankly, heat in this case would cause plastic (et al) to melt first before failure. I'm surprised that breaking the fins (a reasonable thing to do) would void the warranty. Post this in the SH forum.
As for the derating -- I haven't seen many/any dimmers that don't derate though -- even Lutron: http://www.lutron.com/product_technical/ganging.asp
What's interesting is even on their product pages, it doesn't mention this at all. I'd think for safety sake it should be very obvious.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 17 2008 at 17:58 | IP Logged
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Thank you... 
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Gadgets
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| Posted: March 18 2008 at 00:22 | IP Logged
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I agree that switch has to have been defective, or like I said has been designed borderline melt down.
I'm aware derating is done, but have never felt it was right. There was a time when electronics were rated at half thier real failure rating. So you could max out the items electical rating (as advertised) and still have a long way to go before failure. The good old days before pennies counted to manufacturers. 
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bhlonewolf
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| Posted: March 18 2008 at 20:42 | IP Logged
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That's how it often is, I think even for smarthome. May be marketing literature, but I remember somewhere where they posted running a dimmer at about 1500 watts or so for 24 hours in an enclosed box. IIRC, they said the plastic melted completely, but no fire and the switch (though deformed) still worked fine.
I also think they anticipate worst case scenario -- tight boxes, insulated, warm environment, etc.
I really don't think they are designed on borderline meltdown -- not saying they don't fail for one reason or another, but I don't believe it has to do with wattage.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: March 19 2008 at 11:44 | IP Logged
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I’ve got an update. I took the dimmer apart and found a cracked diode under a resistor they press down and cement with some sort of rubber type glue to compress it into the tight space. I suspect stress was the factor. If they would allow a little more lead length to 2 components they would probably not have this problem. The diode is labeled D12. I have no idea of type or value since I don’t have a schematic. They would probably say I overheated it but there are no visible signs of heat damage anywhere in the unit.
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ginigma
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| Posted: March 19 2008 at 19:50 | IP Logged
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Over at cocoontech.com and techmall.com, there are a few guys who know the internals pretty well. At least they've taken a few apart. Especially a guy with a screen name digger. You might want to try to contact him and see if he knows what kind of diode you need.
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