| Author |
|
fasttimes
Groupie
Joined: March 12 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 63
|
| Posted: April 01 2008 at 01:08 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Dave,
I used spidering to find all of my insteon devices, yet for some reason PH is not finding links that I know exist between two switches, because the switches are behaving as they are linked.
What can I do to make PH find the existing links?
Thanks
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
dhoward
Admin Group
Joined: June 29 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4447
|
| Posted: April 02 2008 at 14:03 | IP Logged
|
|
|
fasttimes,
First, check to make sure that the devices havent been flagged as COMM Failed (reddish background in the "Clear Failed" column of the Devices tab. If that's ok, then place a check in the "Scan DB" column of the devices in questions and Save your changes. This will force PH to rescan the devices database.
HTH,
Dave.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
grif091
Super User
Joined: March 26 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1357
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 00:41 | IP Logged
|
|
|
A reliable link between two switches that cannot be reliably viewed from the PLC (PH) could be the result of a problem with cross phase communication. Are you using SignaLincs or AccessPoints to couple the power line phases. Long ago one of my SignaLincs was unplugged (I will not mention by whom) and things that had been working perfectly suddenly developed problems. If the linked switches are on the same phase and the PLC is on the opposite phase you might not see the link from the PLC even though the linked switches are working. I would think that other symptoms would exist if phase coupling developed a problem but maybe a small Insteon network would work without them.
__________________
Lee G
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BeachBum
Super User
Joined: April 11 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 09:01 | IP Logged
|
|
|
I would think any appliance that runs off of 220 if ON would accomplish the phase coupling. I don’t seem to have a problem with phase coupling without SignaLinks or AccessPoints installed but then again I don’t know why. Where the line comes together at the transformer is my guess since it’s only about 50 feet away. I know when I tried to install both types of couplers they would not talk to each other. Smarthomes answer was the phases were already coupled.
__________________
Pete - X10 Oldie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
grif091
Super User
Joined: March 26 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1357
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 09:40 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Nice that your network works without coupling. I had trouble getting my X10 to work reliably cross phase even with coupler/repeaters installed at both power panels. The transformer is several hundred feet from the house. Perhaps that is why I had all my problems. Did not try Insteon without the SignaLincs because of my experiences with X10. One of the SignaLincs got moved because it was "in the way of plugging in the vacuum cleaner". She did not realize the original location was not a random choice. Don't think the idea of different phases was ever really understood but I did get my SignaLinc back in its original location. Have you figured out why PH is not finding the link between the working switches.
__________________
Lee G
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BeachBum
Super User
Joined: April 11 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 10:44 | IP Logged
|
|
|
I have 2 SwitchLincs that are physically linked to each other as 3 ways but I have to manually link them in PH as PH doesn’t discover them linked to each other. The switches work fine manual but in PH when I send a GROUP ON to one the other still indicates off. Just thought I’d pass this on.
__________________
Pete - X10 Oldie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BeachBum
Super User
Joined: April 11 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 11:50 | IP Logged
|
|
|
After much tracing at the SDM it appears that PH is doing its thing and sending out group commands to the right addresses. But anytime I send an ON dim to the slave switch nothing happens at the light. Manually the light will go on and off from both switches. Sounds like there may be a local linking problem.
__________________
Pete - X10 Oldie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
grif091
Super User
Joined: March 26 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1357
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 14:58 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Switch A is controlling the actual load, Switch B is cross linked with Switch A. These are the links that I would expect to see before HP enters picture...
Switch A has load connected
Link - Controller of bb.bb.bb
Link - Responder to bb.bb.bb data values for ramp rate and brightness
Switch B Slave, not connected to any load
Link - Controller of aa.aa.aa
Link - Responder to aa.aa.aa data values for ramp rate and brightness
With the switches cross linked above, Switch A paddle ON press turns on the load, status LEDs turn on, sends a Group Broadcast ON and then Group Cleanup ON to Switch B so Switch B's status LEDs come on. Switch A paddle OFF press turns load off, status LEDs off, sends Group Broadcast OFF and then a Group Cleanup OFF to Switch B so Switch B's status LEDs turn off.
Switch B paddle ON press, status LEDs turn on, sends a Group Broadcast ON and then Group Cleanup ON to Switch A so Switch A can turn on the load and its status LEDs. Switch B paddle OFF press, status LEDs turn off, sends a Group Broadcast OFF and then a Group Cleanup OFF to Switch A so Switch A can turn off the load and its status LEDs.
EDIT: If using ICON On/Off paddle switches, as I do, the single Amber status LED works the other way. The single Amber status LED is ON when the load is off. Makes a nice night light when trying to find the switch in the dark. When the load is turned on, the single Amber status LED turns off.
Now HP enters the picture, if it is going to operate on Switch A and Switch B as a group, I would expect the following links...
Switch A has load connected
Link - Controller of bb.bb.bb
Link - Responder to bb.bb.bb data values for ramp rate and brightness
Link - Responder to PLC data values for ramp rate and brightness
Switch B Slave, not connected to any load
Link - Controller of aa.aa.aa
Link - Responder to aa.aa.aa data values for ramp rate and brightness
Link - Responder to PLC data values for ramp rate and brightness
For HP to turn on Switch A and Switch B group, it sends a Group Broadcast ON followed by a Group Cleanup ON to Switch A to turn on load and its status LEDs, followed by a Group Cleanup ON to Switch B to turn on its status LEDs.
A Group Broadcast ON and Group Cleanup ON to Switch B only will affect Switch B only. The Group Cleanup ON to Switch B does not cause Switch B to send a Group Cleanup ON to Switch A. Insteon devices do not operate that way. That is why switches in a 4 way configuration have so many links because all the switches have to be cross linked to each other.
If HP is sending a Group Broadcast ON followed by a Group Cleanup ON to Switch A followed by a Group Cleanup ON to Switch B, but the load is not turning on, check the ramp rate and brightness values (data values) in the Responder of PLC link in Switch A. I have seen cases where these values have been defined very low, where Switch A is turning on but with such a low brightness level that it appears not to have responded to the ON. With the ramp rate and bright levels being unique to each Responder link entry, Switch B could turn the load ON full and HP, using a different Responder link, turns the load ON but very low. Of course the Group Broadcast ON to Switch A may not be reaching Switch A for the same reason HP is not able to read the link records.
Sorry to be so long winded. If all of this is old news, my apologies. Never know the experience level of the reader. Although using Insteon for nearly 2 years, I have had HP for less than 2 weeks and am not yet familiar with it's ins and outs. Was fantastic to watch all the spider links collected when I ran HP for the first time. The LINK data that HP displays for Switch A and Switch B Responder links does show the ramp rate and bright level.
Edited by grif091 - April 04 2008 at 22:27
__________________
Lee G
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BeachBum
Super User
Joined: April 11 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 15:30 | IP Logged
|
|
|
You’ve got the picture right. All traces indicate the same and the PH linking is the same.
grif091 wrote:
A Group Broadcast ON and Group Cleanup ON to Switch B only will affect Switch B only. The Group Cleanup ON to Switch B does not cause Switch B to send a Group Cleanup ON to Switch A. Insteon devices do not operate that way. That is why switches in a 4 way configuration have so many links because all the switches have to be cross linked to each other.
|
|
|
Switch B is the one that concerns me but what you are saying is that is by design. Then I don’t have a problem. 
__________________
Pete - X10 Oldie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
grif091
Super User
Joined: March 26 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1357
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 15:38 | IP Logged
|
|
|
If you still cannot read the links in those switches using PH, I suggest you download from SimpleHomeNet their free Simplehomenet Utility Suite. That program is designed to manipulate the Insteon based devices they have built but that Utility Suite has a Manage Device Links option that will display the link database in any of the Insteon devices I have (not the PLC), not just the Simplehomenet devices. The first screen has a "Use PLC" button that must be checked, followed by a press of "Connect". When successfully connected to the PLC a message will be displayed at the bottom of the screen. Across the top of the screen are options, select the "Manage Device Links" tab. At the Manage Device Links screen, enter Switch A Insteon address in the "Insteon Device ID:" field in the form xx.xx.xx then press "Display Existing Links". All the links in Switch A will be displayed. You can change the address to Switch B and display those links. No changes are made to Switch A or Switch B by this action, it will show you the links in Switch A & B, and that you can communicate with Switch A & B through the PLC.
__________________
Lee G
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
BeachBum
Super User
Joined: April 11 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 15:44 | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thks Lee, I'll give it a try.
__________________
Pete - X10 Oldie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
grif091
Super User
Joined: March 26 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1357
|
| Posted: April 04 2008 at 16:16 | IP Logged
|
|
|
I was posting another message as your latest came in. Yes, that is the Insteon design. It is the responsibility of the Insteon device where the button or paddle press occurred to send a Group Broadcast followed by a Group Cleanup message to each device for which there is a "Controller of" link record in its link database (that also matches the group number). For paddle switches there is only one group number. For Keypadlincs, there are 6 or 8 group numbers possible depending on how the Keypadlinc switch is configured (6 button or 8 button). Simplehomenet makes devices that allow dry contact switches (among many other things) to control its Input circuits. Just like a button/paddle press, when one of its Input circuits changes state, it sends an Insteon Group Broadcast, followed by Group Cleanup messages to all devices that have a match in its link database. HA software has the same requirement. This actually gives HA software flexibility not possible in a pure hardware device. You can have many devices defined in a Group but send Group Cleanup messages to only one or a subset of devices in the group. Only the devices receiving the specific Group Cleanup react to the command. That can be a good thing, or a bad thing if one is expecting the entire group to be affected. You can look through some of the forum entries for PH and see that characteristic being exploited.
Edit: Not following the requirement to send a Group Cleanup message to all devices in the group can/will get the status LEDs and load completely out of sync across the group.
Edited by grif091 - April 05 2008 at 19:58
__________________
Lee G
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Active Topics 
Memberlist 
Search 
Help
Register 
Login
PowerHome Messageboard : PowerHome General
Topic: Powerhome not finding links
