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scaesare
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| Posted: December 07 2006 at 15:43 | IP Logged
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Hello. Downloaded the eval of PH a couple of days ago to see if it will do what I need so I can purchase.
I've managed to get all of my devices installed, and all of my existing link detected. I've modifed some existing links (created via TAP TAP), and built a couple new ones.
A few of questions if I may:
1)The meaing of the non-toggle modes. Do the "On" and "Off" refer to a button always having it's indicator LED on or off, or a button alway sending either an On or Off to it's linked responders? Or both?
2)KPL Button grouping: I have a KPL (6 btn) where button 3 was linked to responders, and it conrols the scene. It was linked as a toggle. As soon as I change it to a non-toggle mode (using the "Button LED workaround" in the help), it stops controlling it's responders. Changing it back to a toggle restores it to correct behavior. Does changing a button's "toggleness" affect it's link behavior?
3) Button grouping: In toggle mode, I can use the 4 small buttons on my KPL (6 btn) to slect a scene, and use the "LED Checkboxes" in PH to toggle the other 3 buttons to "LED Off". However, I cannot get button 1. I've tried linking button one as a responder, in addition to using it's LED checkbox, but still no-go. Button one has no local load attached. I've also tied turning off LED's #1 & #2 (as the 'big' button span's both these LED 'slots'). Nothing is successful.
I'm sure I'm doing something simple wrong. Any pointers greatly appreciated.
If I can get these ironed out, I look forward to being a PH customer.
-Steve
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dhoward
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| Posted: December 08 2006 at 21:17 | IP Logged
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Steve,
Welcome to PowerHome!
1. The buttons on a KPL default as toggle buttons meaning that when pressed once, they send an "On" command (and the button light turns on) and when pressed again it sends an "Off" command and the button light turns off. You can change this default behaviour by setting a button to either non-toggle on or non-toggle off. A non-toggle On button will always send an "On" command (and the light will always be on). A non-toggle off button will always send an "Off" command and the button light will always be off. I know of at least one user though who has been able to use the KPL config util to "trick" the non-toggle buttons to either always have it's light on or always have it's light off regardless of the type of button. Im not sure of the exact method that was used but it surprised even SmartHome.
2. Changing a KPL's "toggleness" (cool word, btw  ) does not effect it's linked behaviour (completely separate items). Something else must be going on. Watch the PowerHome event log (or the SDM log if you like the raw code) and see what is being sent when you press the button in non-toggle mode. Let me know what you see and I'll try to duplicate it on my end.
3. Exerting control over the load buttons is a very "iffy" adventure. They don't behave as normal buttons and you may not be able to achieve the outcome you desire. One thing to try though is to set the KPL into 8 button mode (and keep the 6 button layout if that's what you prefer). This will change the load button to a toggle button (something that cant be done in 6 button mode) and you might have better luck controlling the lights with the LED on/off checkboxes.
Let me know how I can be of help,
Dave.
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 08 2006 at 21:39 | IP Logged
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Dave... thanks for the welcome and the explanations.
I'm going to take your suggestion to go watch the logs and see what's up with the load not being controlled after I change the botton to non-togle...
In the mean time, some initial feedback:
1)It would seem that none of the 3 modes really do what I had hoped. In essence, I'm hoping for the KPL buttons to act more-or-less like Windows Radio Buttons. That is: Each button when selected jumps to that scene, and becomes the only lit button in the group (thus indicating it's the "currently selected" button). Hitting the same button again would have no effect, as that scene is already currenty "in effect". What I believe I need for this to happen is to be able to enable each button as non-toggle-on , yet be able to turn the other button's LED's off. Any other ways that might be possible?
2) I'll definitely check this out. Thanks.
3) The hover-help in the KPL seems to indicate that a secondary button should be able to exert control over a primary (both for load and LED) as long as it is both linked as a controller, the the LED checkboxes are configured accordingly. Is the uncertainty of this due to something I can control, like link order of buttons on the KPL, etc...? Or is it firmware specific? Or perhaps just downright flakey design from SH? While I'm trying this, could you confirm what LED checkbox(es) should be checked for the large ON button on a KPL-6? Is it 1, 2 or both? If I were to configure as an 8-button, I'd assume I'd need to link groups 1 & 2 as controllers for all the responders that are currently listening only on group #1 currently? Ditto for 7 & 8?
Thaks Dave.. very impressive software you have.
-Steve
PS- In trying to be a good newbie, I had perused the past year's worth of posts to see if my Q's had already been answered, and I found out about the ability to replace a responder and re-load the database in to the new unit. I just found out I have a SL that the LED went out on, so I suspect this handy feature alone is going to be worth the price of admission when I get the replacement SL.
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dhoward
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| Posted: December 08 2006 at 22:20 | IP Logged
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Steve,
With item 1, you should be able to set it up as you describe. The only difference being that if you press an already "lit" or selected button, then it would turn that scene off. So if we were to take a standard 6 button KPL and program the 4 little buttons to be XOR buttons, we would first create the necessary links for each of the four scenes. In it's default mode, pressing any of the four buttons would "trigger" that buttons scene (and have absolutely no effect on the previous buttons scene). What Im saying is that if we press button 3 (the first of the little buttons), we'll turn on Scene 1. If we then press button 4, we'll turn on Scene 2 and this will have no effect on scene 1 (unless you've got some of the same lights in scene 1 and scene 2). So, if you're wanting a scene to consist of specific lights being ON and specific lights being OFF, you'll need to create links to the OFF lights with a desired level of 0. So even if you're triggering this scene with an ON command, certains lights come on, certains ones go off, and others go to specific levels.
Anyways, once you're got the buttons with the appropriate links all set up, go to the KPL config tab. Read the appropriate KPL and verify that the buttons are set as toggle. Then in button 3, place a check in the OFF box of LED 4,5,6. Similarly, in button 4, place a check in the OFF boxes of LEF 3,5,6. Follow suit for buttons 5 and 6. Save the KPL config. Now when you press button 3, button 3 will light up and turn scene 1 on. If you press button 4, button 4 will light up (buttons 3,5,and 6 will turn off) and scene 2 will turn on, etc. If you again press button 4 once it's been lit, then button 4 will send an OFF command to scene 2 and button 4's light will turn off. Hopefully close enough to what you're looking for.
3. I havent played with my KPL lately so may be completely off on the following explanations (I'll need to break out my test units). In 6 button mode, the load buttons act kind of like non-toggle On and non-toggle Off buttons with a specific pre-programmed behaviour that Im not sure, but don't think you can override with the LED button settings (as far as the button lights go). For instance, even though the top button is a non-toggle on, it's LED is only lit when the load is "ON". When the load is off, then the bottom button (non-toggle off) is lit. This is different behaviour than other non-toggle buttons. When in 8 button mode however, this special "behaviour" is overridden and all the buttons act similarly except that the load follows the group 1 button.
Now if you were to configure a KPL as an 8 button device with the 6 button faceplace, then I don't think you have to duplicate the group 1 to group 2 or group 7 to group 8. Im pretty sure that the faceplace will only trigger group 1 and group 7.
With all that said, if you want to control the main load (group 1) from a secondary button, you must create a link and set the LED checkboxes appropriately. If button 3 was going to turn the main group on or off with it, then place a check in the LED 1 On box of button 3. Create a link from button 3 to button 1 and then whenever you turn on button 3, it will turn button 1 on as well. If you turn button 3 off, then button 1 will also turn off. Keep in mind that if you do this, one of the flakey things about the KPL is that the load will only come on at full on or full off no matter what you set the link up to be. This is a known SmartHome deficiency and I don't know if they plan on fixing this or not. What this precludes is using a KPL with the middle buttons being specific DIM settings for the load. What alot of people were hoping to do was for the main button to turn the light on 100%, button 3 75%, button 4 50%, etc. You CAN do this if you don't hook the light up to the KPL as a load and instead use an inlinelinc to actually control the load with the KPL just being a controller.
Well hopefully I provided some of the answers without straying too far .
Dave.
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 09 2006 at 15:35 | IP Logged
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Dave,
I've found that if you JUST do the LED checkboxes for the button one, that's all that's necessary. It works great. I even did a "inter button" link on the keypad to the load and NO link shows up in the link tables, but the LED checkbox is on. You might try this to see if it works for others. I got an error when I actually created a link from say button 4 to button 1. It created fine, but wouldn't function. I later deleted this link, put a checkmark in the ON led for 1 under button 4 and it works like a charm. 
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 09 2006 at 17:40 | IP Logged
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Cicero.. I'll try this again, but that's encouraging.
Are you just turning button one On from another button, or are you able to turn Off too?
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 10 2006 at 14:59 | IP Logged
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It functions as a normal toggle. The KPL at my backdoor going to my garage has a button for "all downstairs lights" this included the load of this KPL. There is no "link" from button 6 (8 button mode) to button 1, however, I went in the KPL configuration, put a checkmark in button 1 on for button 6 and saved the changes. this button now, when pushed, turns on all the downstairs lights and when pressed again, turns them all off. I have this setup on all the KPLs, the rest of which as set as 6 buttons, and it works just fine. I discovered this by manually linking the button and going back to PH and setting it to discover new links and waited. After it had checked this KPL, NO new links were reported. I went to the KPL config screen and looked at this switch at it had a checkmark in the ON position for this button.
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 10 2006 at 19:41 | IP Logged
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Ah OK, so this is in 8-button mode.
Have you by chance gotten this to work in 6-button mode?
Thanks again for your help.
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 11 2006 at 08:59 | IP Logged
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Same thing in 6 button mode (I have this same button configured on all my KPLs for security. Nice to be able to light up the bulk of the house quickly if you hear a noise in the middle of the night!)
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 12 2006 at 19:48 | IP Logged
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Well, I appeciate your input, but this is definitely not how it's working for me.
- Any checkmarks in buttons 3-6 that attempt to turn button 1's LED off do nothing.
- If I create a link from KPL1/btn3 as controller to KPL1/btn1 as responder to set the button to "0" level, not only does it not work, I get the rapid-flash on button 3 indicating it didn't get a successful ACK.
- If I link to a different KPL (KPL1/btn as controller to KPL2/btn1 as responder), it works just dandy.
- I definitely get links reported int he DB if I create them... not the "Checkboxes instead" behavior Cicero is getting.
Incidentally, neither of my KPL's have actual loads on them... they are strictly controllers for other devices.
Is there any chance that the "button linking order" silliness that that KPL's exhibit is biting me here?
I guess I'll try configuring it as an 8-button controller next. If I do this, will it screw up existing links I have?
Thanks.
Edited by scaesare - December 12 2006 at 21:02
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 12 2006 at 22:41 | IP Logged
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Let me clarify, I ONLY have the button ON selected. This toggles button 1 with the secondary button. Also, the only times I get JUST the checkbox is on the same KPL
So,
Button 6, Checkmark under ON for button 1 {write the changes to the kpl}
Now, when I press button 6, it turns on and button 1 turns on and likewise when I press 6 again, it turns off and button 1 turns off.
NOW, getting button 1 to turn OFF when you turn button 6 ON, in otherwords to behave OPPOSITE to the secondary button, sorry, haven't tried that 
I also haven't been able to link a button from one KPL to turn on some lights and turn others off AND have the corresponding buttons turn off. No matter what I do, the buttons turn on.  Oh well, for now it's ok, still have to puzzle that part.
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 13 2006 at 14:14 | IP Logged
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Ahh, very good point. I am trying to do an "Off" on btn1 when btn6 comes "On". That probably does explain the difference. (Althouh given that the checkboxes are only supposed to affect LED status, I do find it interesting that it seems to be controlling loads for you too).
I hope to try 8-button mode tonight... if anybody can help assure me that all my links won't get screwed up by going from 6-button mode to 8-button mode.. I'd feel a little more brave.
Or is there a way to save all my current links to a file, and if I screw something up too badly, just facotry-restt all my Insteon's and reload them from PH?
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 13 2006 at 15:46 | IP Logged
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If they are showing in PH, then they are already saved in that database. You can do a "rebuild" from within PH that will put the links in the actual devices. I've had to do this once or twice. A real life saver.
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scaesare
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| Posted: December 13 2006 at 19:35 | IP Logged
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Thanks Cicero...
Well absolutely NOTHING will as acontroller turn LED1 off. I've tried 6 button, 8 button, LED Off chckboxes only, chekboxes & device links, all manners of toggleness for all buttons.
The only way to do it is if button #1 is a toggle, and it "turns itself" off.
I guess I'll simply set all the buttons to non-toggle on and live with the fact I won't be able to have the KPL status reflect the current scene selection.
Rather disappointing. I dunno how anybody else has ever gotten the "LED 1 Checkbox" in the KPL Config tab to ever do anything.
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 14 2006 at 11:58 | IP Logged
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I'll play around with it a little this weekend. I've got a couple of more to install, one which will be in the room with the computer, so I won't have to run all over the house
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cmhardwick
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| Posted: December 18 2006 at 14:20 | IP Logged
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Ok, Yes using ONLY the KPL Config tool, you can get the Load to turn on and off in sync with a secondary button, no "link" is necessary. Just load the KPL Config, select the secondary button (let's say 4) and put a checkmark for button 1 on and save. WHen you press button 4, you will now also control the load.
NO you cannot have it go in the opposite direction. You cannot put a checkmark in OFF for button one and have it turn off when you press button 4.
Now, I did not try (in six button mode) putting the checkmark for ON under button 8 which is the off button instead of button 1. I didn't try this because I just thought of it I'll try it tonight.
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dhoward
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| Posted: December 18 2006 at 15:52 | IP Logged
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Well I broke out my test box and played with all manners of this for over an hour. Here are my results.
Cicero, you are correct. A link is not necessary in order to control the load from a secondary button. I know I tested this very thing previously but obviously my earlier results were incorrect. All you have to do is place a check in the LED 1 On box of the controlling button. So, if you want button 3 to control button 1 (the load), then place a check in LED 1 On of Button 3. When button 3 is turned on, then button 1 will turn on (light and load). When button 3 is turned off, then button 1 will turn off.
Button 1 (the load button) is a unique animal in 6 button or 8 button mode. As Steve points out, placing a check in LED 1 Off box (as in XOR buttons) WILL NOT turn off button 1 (light or load).
I WAS able to get button 1 to turn off from secondary buttons however. If you want to turn button 1 off using button 3, then do the following. Make sure that button 3 is already off. Set button 3 as non-toggle and place a check in LED 1 On. This follows the above where the LED 1 On checkbox will control button 1 (the LED 1 OFF will not). What the LED 1 On checkbox does is make button 1 match the controlling button. If button 3 is off, then pressing button 3 will turn on both button 3 and button 1. If button 3 is on, then pressing button 3 will turn off both button 3 and button 1. By making button 3 a non-toggle when button 3 is off (this make button 3 a non-toggle always off button), then anytime you press button 3, button 1 will also turn off. Don't know how useful this is, but it does work.
You can make a button be a non-toggle On with the LED always off by simply putting a check in the LED Off Checkbox of the associated button. Leave the button as a toggle though. For example, if you want button 4 to always send an "On" command and the button 4 LED to always be "Off" (just as it would be if it was a non-toggle off), then place a check in the LED 4 Off checkbox of button 4. What happens is that since the button is still a toggle, if it's current state is Off, it then sends an "On" command. Since the LED 4 Off checkbox is checked, it turns its own light off. So the next time you press the button, it see's that it's light is already off and again will just send an On command and repeat the process. I was not able to make an always Off button with the button LED always on.
A button being non-toggle on or non-toggle off is controlled by the current state of the button LED. If you create a button as a non-toggle off and then use another button (or a PLC group) to turn that buttons LED on, then that button will now be a non-toggle on. The reverse also applies. Again, not sure how useful this is.
The Load button (button 1) can be set to be a non-toggle off (at least in 8 button mode). It's LED will stay off (and so will the load) whenever you press button 1. However, just like any other button, if something controls the light to turn it on, then it will now behave as a non-toggle on until some other mechanism turns the light off.
Hope this helps a little,
Dave.
Edited by dhoward - December 18 2006 at 15:53
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Topic: Insteon KPL questions
