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RichardL
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| Posted: December 07 2009 at 13:18 | IP Logged
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I am working on reducing the powerline noise in my home. From the X10 days, I still have some devices, and am not sure of their benefit or detriment on an Insteon setup.
Basically what is the thinking for these devices:
ACT AF100 (5 amp plug in filter) #4845
ACT AF120 (15 amp plug in filter) #4845ACF
ACT AF300 (20 amp low pass hardwired filter) #4846
ACT CR234 (repeater, amplifier) #4821AC
Leviton 5Amp in-line Noise Block #6287
BoosterLinc
FilterLinc 5 amp
FilterLinc 10 amp
Any other devices recommended?
Feedback appreciated!
Thanks,
Richard
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grif091
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| Posted: December 07 2009 at 14:33 | IP Logged
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I use both 5A and 10A FilterLincs. For Insteon there are two issues. Around PC/UPS power supplies Insteon signals are attenuated (signal suckers) to the point that they are less reliable. A Filterlinc will isolate those devices and prevent the Insteon signals from being reduced in level. The other problem is noise. The FilterLincs seems to do a good job at resolving that as well. By unplugging devices or turning off individual circuit breakers sources of noise can generally be determined. I have a 10A FilterLinc supplying the UPS and various other devices at the computer location to eliminate signal attenuation. Installed 5A FilterLincs on a flat screen TV and other sources that were determined to be adding noise to the powerline. No experience with the other devices in your list.
Edited by grif091 - December 07 2009 at 14:35
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Lee G
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 07 2009 at 15:53 | IP Logged
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I am basically in the opposite scenario. I have all the devices mentioned above except BoosterLinc and FilterLincs in use right now. My installation is 95% insteon. I have many of the devices, covering all the "usual suspects" PCs, TVs, even some complete circuits that have pond pumps, home theatre, etc on them. I still have some noise, so I am expanding my coverage.
My concern is: do these older "X10" units suffice for Insteon? ...or do I need to replace everything with FilterLincs, which SH states as being OK for both Insteon and X10?
Thank you.
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grif091
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| Posted: December 07 2009 at 16:06 | IP Logged
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Insteon signals are on a different part the AC sine wave then X10 and I think they are modulated at a different frequency. It will depend on how the X10 device is designed. I have heard some active X10 couplers work but not as well because of the time slot and frequency differences. Hopefully someone else will have experience with the specific X10 devices you mention.
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Lee G
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 07 2009 at 17:50 | IP Logged
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Lee - as usual thanks for your help. What you state is exactly my uncertainty.
I could always replace almost everything with FilterLincs, but that will be a significant cost, and effort, since I have many devices. Also there are no FilterLinc equivalents to some of the installed devices - like the whole-circuit AF300, or the 6287 noise blocks...
Any other help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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Handman
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| Posted: December 08 2009 at 02:49 | IP Logged
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I know a little about this from corresponding with Jeff Volpe, designer of the XTB line of X10 amplifiers/repeaters. X10 is at 120 KHz and Insteon at 131.65 KHz, so the filters for X10 are not really designed for Insteon. Having said that, there are low pass filters that filter noise above a certain frequency. Since Insteon is above the X10, this filter might be an option. Here is some more text I learned on the subject. Jeff also has a lot of noise information on his website, although it is geared towards X10. JV Digital Engineering
******************************************
There are really three kinds of filters:
The readily available plug-in XPPF a low-pass filter that blocks noise above its cutoff frequency. That is very effective at blocking noise produced by a variety of electrical devices. While rated 5A, it will get pretty warm and start to stink if really pushed that hard.
The Leviton 6287 is a notch filter that blocks signals at the X10 frequency. It will pass signals and noise outside the X10 frequency band. This works well with X10 devices because they have bandpass filters in their input stages to reject noise outside the X10 band. An advantage of a notch filter is that they can be made smaller than a low-pass filter of similar current capability. That's why the 6287 is so small. I believe the 20A XPF is also a notch filter. A 20A low-pass filter with a cutoff low enough to be effective for 120KHz would be pretty large and heavy.
The Leviton 6289 and similar X10 device is a bandpass filter. That will tend to "peak" signals at the X10 frequency, and attenuate signals outside that band. I have experimented with one myself, and it doesn't seem to be that effective. It might be a good candidate to remove random noise, such as from the brushes in universal motors used in many small appliances.
Because all but the XPPF are designed for the 120KHz X10 band, they will not be that effective at reducing noise at the Insteon frequency. Some have unsoldered the prongs of the XPPF, and turned it into a wire-in filter for use in applications such as yours. You would have to mount it into a box near the first fixture in the string.
***************************
I am still dealing with my own noise issues - most likely fluorescent and low voltage halogen lights - but limiting the X10 has been the answer. I have some Insteon issues, but it is ignorable. Good luck. Hope the information helps.
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 08 2009 at 19:35 | IP Logged
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Alot of interesting information. Thank you for the reply.
The AF300 is called a "low pass" filter, looking at the Smarthome site, the AF300 filters "everything above 300Hz". I guess, as you said - this is a filter that can work. It sounds like all the other filters are not "insteon-aware". Reading about the FilterLincs - they state insteon/X10, but all spec numbers only state 120Khz, which makes me wonder if the new Smarthome FilterLincs really do anything for Insteon.
Also you mention to "limit X10" I still have a handful of old (green LED) switchlincs that are only in place to allow for fade up/down. Should I remove these switches? Will it benefit Insteon if I try to get rid of the last of the X10 devices (powerflashes).
Thank you.
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grif091
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| Posted: December 08 2009 at 19:59 | IP Logged
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Smarthome FilterLincs work for Insteon. They prevent Insteon signals from be absorbed by PC/UPS power supplies and stop noise that would interfere with Insteon signals from getting back on the powerline.
Because Insteon devices are send/receive (most X10 devices do one or the other but not both) each Insteon device can absorb some of an X10 signal and since Insteon devices do not repeat an X10 signal some X10 signal strength can be lost. This can result in an X10 installation becoming less reliable the more Insteon devices you install. The Insteon network improves overall with more installed Insteon devices since Insteon devices repeat Insteon signals.
Insteon devices generally respect the existence of X10 signals and will not walk on them. X10 devices generally are not aware of Insteon signals since they are at a different frequency and place on the AC sine way so X10 devices can step on Insteon signals. The command retry process built into the Insteon architecture generally compensates for this.
How far you go and how quickly from X10 to Insteon is both a cost consideration and how well the X10 stuff works. Lots of folks use both. I migrated to an entire Insteon network except for a few outdoor motion floods for which no direct Insteon replacement existed at the time I converted to Insteon.
Edited by grif091 - December 08 2009 at 20:01
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 09:43 | IP Logged
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Thanks for the update, so FilterLincs and AF300s are OK. Looks like the 5amp Levitons and the inline noise blocks are not doing anything for me. I have many X10 5 amp filters on numerous PCs - so that may be part of my problem.
Just to follow up on one item: I have some X10 Powerflash and Chimes that are in use, and I need to migrate - which won't be easy since for some reason SH can't build an insteon chime (they offer the IO Linc setup which is expensive and limited). Question: I have 4 old X10 switches that are not being used via X10, I just have them for the fade in/out. Since I am not using them as "addressable" switches - are they impacting Insteon (from your reply it does sound like they are).
Thanks.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 10:26 | IP Logged
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My problem is how do you filter out a device you dim which is causing the noise like a low voltage halogen light trac system. My only solution so far is to use a Leviton X10 dimmer whose signal technology seems to be very reliable in this situation. When I used Insteon on this circuit the reliability was unacceptable.
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Handman
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 11:06 | IP Logged
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Pete, I have the same lights: LV halogen (50W) on individual electronic transformers (brand is WAC Lighting). I have 14 of these little beasties on one lighting circuit (three lighting branches). I can command these lights with PH with great reliability, but once switch is often slow to respond to paddle pushes. It may even will take 10 pushes to respond at times. I have RMAed many of these (switchlincs) and have replaced them with the latest firmware version switchlincs. There is something about the location that is messing with the switch (it's in a four gang, but it doesn't actually carry a load). I am about to rig an XPPF filter into the system to see if it helps, but it is a plug in module and has to be modified to wire in between the load and the switches. I just bought a bigger gang box to test it out and will post when I finally have anything to report. Are your problems similar or more classic NAK issues? (BTW, I have plenty of unusual Insteon commands, but they generally do not cause problems, so I have learned to live with it. The noise I see seems sporadic, so it would be hard to "kill a circuit" to test and I am unwilling to buy 10 + filterlincs for every possible plug in item.)
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 12:20 | IP Logged
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Well that’s interesting… I have on 1 load 2 tracs with a total of 10 fixtures which is a mixture of R20 and LV Halogen transformers. The other circuit is a mixture of 3 transformers controlling under cabinet lighting which are torpedo style blubs. When I tried either or both with Insteon I was nak’ed to death. I went back to the Leviton HCM10 series with both because they have a much better way of filtering the noise from the X10 modulation on the 60 cycle. And these 2 are in a 4 gang box of which I have a KPL with a trac on the load that controls a mixture of R20 and LV Halogen but only 3 total on the trac. The 4th in the box is a standard switch. I also have 2 other tracs that are controlled by their own Insteon switches with no problem most of the time. The 2 X10 tracs generate enough noise to attenuate Insteon on the rest of that circuit. It would be interesting if a FilterLinc could be placed on the controlled load of a dimmable line.
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Handman
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 14:23 | IP Logged
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You might try wire-nutting on a male and female plug (about $3 in parts) and stick the Filterlinc "in-line." Just watch your amperage (which sounds like it would be fine). If you have good results, then maybe you can "modify" the FilterLinc and stick it in the switch box. Too bad it's a 4-gang because you would have to get something bigger to make room. Of course this whole scenario voids FilterLinc warranties and not sure about violating Nat. Elec. Code (NEC) too. Your scenario sounds a whole lot more like "classic" Insteon noise - mine is still a bit fuzzy.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 10 2009 at 15:48 | IP Logged
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I already have a box in-line in the attic so that would not be a problem. I was just wondering what happens to the characteristics of the FilterLinc as the voltage drops in the circuit. I would think it would be all or nothing. Another thought I had was to place a FilterLinc in the circuit before the Insteon dimmer with an Access Point with it to get around the FilterLinc. The other thing that is strange with this particular circuit is when there is Insteon activity it will cause all the lights to flicker bright, if they are dimmed. This has been observed by others also but in my case it doesn’t matter whether it is controlled by X10 or Insteon. None of the others seemed to be bothered by traffic.
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 18 2009 at 13:33 | IP Logged
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So, if I put a FilterLinc "inline", in between the circuit breaker and a SwitchLinc - will the SwitchLinc still be able to receive and send Insteon signals? or in other words, will I be able to use the SwitchLincs the same way I would without the inline Filterlinc?
Thanks.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 18 2009 at 17:14 | IP Logged
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I don’t believe anything will pass on the sine wave. Although I haven’t tested it yet either.
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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RichardL
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| Posted: December 29 2009 at 12:20 | IP Logged
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As a follow up, I was back and forth with Smarthome tech. They agreed that if you put a filter, like an AF300 on an entire circuit, you MAY prevent Insteon signals from getting to any SwitchLincs on that circuit. They also liked the Leviton inline filter which is similar to the AF300.
My problem is that I have one room with 12 low voltage halogen hihats that I think buzz away. Those hihats are controlled by 5 SwitchLincs.
A suggestion was to perform the AF300 install, and if I lose control of the SwitchLincs, install an Access Point within the circuit.
Sounds like a good plan. Now I have to carve out time to get it done, and watch what happens.
I'll update at that time.
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BeachBum
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| Posted: December 29 2009 at 13:12 | IP Logged
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I’ll be waiting with baited breath…
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Pete - X10 Oldie
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Topic: Noise wars
